Revitalizing West Virginia: Opioid Crisis, Economic Challenges & Social Divides w/ Garrett Ballengee

Dive into the rural heartland of West Virginia, where the welfare system intersects with the urban-rural divide, shaping the landscape of opportunity and challenge. Join Garrett Ballengee from the Cardinal Institute for West Virginia Public Policy as we delve into the state's struggle against the opioid epidemic, demographic shifts, and economic barriers, revealing the potential for a "West Virginia miracle." Explore how public policy and intellectual investment can catalyze revitalization, emphasizing education, economic development, and workforce initiatives.

Unravel the paradoxical obstacles created by the welfare system, trapping individuals in a cycle of dependency. Discover the transformative work of the Dignity Project and innovative policies like Utah's 'one-door policy' that promote true financial independence.

Dive into the cultural dynamics shaping rural-urban relations, challenging stereotypes and fostering balanced discussions. From confronting media portrayals to advocating for nuanced conversations during crises like COVID, join us for an episode that sparks change in supporting rural communities.

00:00:00 Rural American Struggles and Opportunities 

00:08:43 Welfare System Benefit Cliff Problem 

00:15:25 Improving Welfare Benefits and Community Relations

00:19:13 Cultural Stereotypes and Identity Pride

00:23:17 Tribal DNA and Cultural Tensions 

00:35:44 Elitism and Cultural Disparities 

00:44:43 Balanced Views on Energy and Industry

Recorded: 3/26
Intro: Metropolis Nights- penguinmusic 
Outro: Powerful Beat- penguinmusic 

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Today, we're discovering the struggles encountered by rural Americans on a daily basis. This includes an ongoing drug epidemic, the lack of labor participation in their workforce and welfare hurdles, plus the constant barbs that rural Americans face by coastal elites. Welcome to Overcoming the Divide. This is a platform dedicated to insightful political discourse and debate. This conversation is with Garrett Ballingy, the president and CEO of the Cardinal Institute for West Virginia Public Policy. If you wish to support the show and never miss a beat of what we're discussing, next hit that subscribe button in the bottom right hand corner and, if you like, share it with a friend. Thank you Now, without further ado. Welcome to Overcoming the Divide as the president and CEO of the Cardinal Institute. What is the mission? What is the goal that you're trying to achieve?

Speaker 2: 1:22

Yeah. So I think, in kind of a meta level 2015 to essentially build out and lay the necessary intellectual infrastructure that we felt was necessary in order to really turn West Virginia around from its reputation of being something of an economic backwater right, something that plays synonymous with lack of opportunity, and really kind of move it forward in the 21st century in a positive direction. So what we like to work on and kind of build towards is this idea of a West Virginia miracle, which is kind of one day, I hope, to wake up and read an article in the Wall Street Journal that has that headline the West Virginia miracle journal that has that headline the West Virginia miracle. And so, in practice, what that actually means is we work on a variety of public policy issues wherein we do original research, we try to communicate, we try to educate the broader West Virginia public on ideas that we think stand a pretty good chance of moving West Virginia forward in that direction, and so we've also West Virginia forward in that direction, and so we've also we do a lot of other ancillary things, whether it is host focus groups.

Speaker 2: 2:29

We have a podcast we have we're starting to take a look at. Well, maybe it's not just West Virginia we want to try to help Maybe it's a broader Appalachia, because every sort of negative issue that you see in West Virginia you could also talk about more broadly in the greater Appalachian region and so that ranges from everything, like I said, podcasts and white papers to op-eds and radio debates and TV debates and all kinds of fun stuff really just sort of engaging in a meaningful way in the marketplace of ideas.

Speaker 1: 2:58

Interesting. And when you say the negative issues that seem to be ubiquitous throughout Appalachia, what are some of those issues that immediately come to mind when you think of the issues that daily residents are facing?

Speaker 2: 3:16

Yeah, how much time do you have? No, in all seriousness, I mean it really is sort of a litany of things. I mean it's everything from sort of the demographic, which is the idea that West Virginia is a pretty old state, broader Appalachia is a pretty old region. A lot of people are moving out, very few people are moving in, although we're starting to see a little bit of a change there perhaps, and maybe we can get into that later. You have West Virginia. In particular in eastern Kentucky are considered kind of the epicenter of the opioid epidemic, so we have the highest overdose fatality rates in the country. West Virginia specifically has the highest rate of kids entering the foster care system. Beyond demographic and the state is sort of facing what I call a demographic winter because their birth rate is below our death rate and that's never good. Right, if you put those two trend lines on, a graph.

Speaker 2: 4:10

That's not. That's not a recipe for a brighter future, but it also it's things like the state has been synonymous with poverty for a very long time. We have one of the lowest median household income rates in the income levels in the in the country. We have a relatively low rate of business startups. We have the lowest rate of education attainment in the country. So, daniel, when I asked you, like how much time do you have, I kind of meant it like we kind of keep on going you know, in terms of heart disease, percentage of people on disability and welfare.

Speaker 2: 4:43

We kind of like to joke that we're at the top of every list that you don't want to be at the top at and the bottom of every list you don't want to be at the bottom.

Speaker 1: 4:50

So yeah, Well, let's dive into something that I feel is kind of attached to a number of these issues, which is opportunity, specifically economic opportunity, and for anyone who's remotely familiar with West Virginia, they'll take note of that. It has a beautiful landscape, even if you've never been, just seeing pictures of it. But then you, as you mentioned, dive a little deeper and you look at different lists and you see it's like the third highest in the nation for the poverty rate. There's issues with the demographic, as you said, the opioid crisis and just economic opportunity. Overall, that's kind of like struggling to make its way there. What do you see as a prudent way method to turn some of this around? Like what's going back to your institute and what you guys really focus on, work on and that um dream that you're ever more so striving towards. Like what's some of those initiatives and projects that you're taking up to counter these trends?

Speaker 2: 5:46

Well, maybe if we kind of rewind back to Cardinal's earliest days, whenever I move and I am from West Virginia, I was born and raised, I've been here, most of my life, spent about five years in DC, but apart from that I've been I've been in West Virginia and you began to look around the state and there was sort of a, there was a common theme which was again lack of opportunity, and that manifested both in the workplace and the broader economy, manifested in our education system, even manifested in some ways, I think, culturally, rhetorically. The state likes to talk about how independent it is and self-reliant. Our state motto is even Montani Semper Libri, meaning mountaineers are always free, and that was very much a part of West Virginia's founding ethos whenever it broke away from East Virginia back during the Civil War. But we sort of lost that rhetorical or sort of that actual manifestation of independence and freedom in all those areas. So whenever we were looking at building the so-called West Virginia miracle, we understood that we had to kind of break down the state's issues sort of in silos.

Speaker 2: 6:51

And so to me the biggest, the most glaring lack of opportunity manifested itself in our education system. So what do I mean by lack of opportunity in education, particularly K-12? Education, particularly K-12. West Virginia had no form of school choice, for example, until 2019. Not even public charter schools, which some states had had since the early 1990s, and certainly no form of private school choice, whether it be a voucher or ESA or tax credit, scholarship or something like that. So we started to look and say, well, how can we make a difference in our education system? So we began to do what most think tanks do and that's research ideas out there that we thought would be interesting for West Virginia to try. So we wrote a paper on what's called an education savings account and really took that paper and used that as a basis to go across the state and talk about how school choice might benefit 300,000 children in West Virginia. And so, through teacher strikes and kind of strategic missteps and just sort of the natural ebb and flow of a legislative process, we eventually got the most expansive ESA of its kind in the country passed in 2021. So from 2015 to 2021, which is when Cardinal was started in 2015, I kind of liken it to we went from fire in a cave to nuclear fusion in that period of time in terms of education policy. That's a good thing about the state because it's a relatively small state. We're under 2 million people now. We're smaller now in population than we were in 1950, which, if you think about it, is absurd whenever you compare it to the rest of the country's growth. But if you have an idea and you're strategic and you're smart about it and you articulate it in a way that people can understand and appreciate the value of what you're saying, then you have a really good chance to make a difference here, and we saw that in education policy.

Speaker 2: 8:43

It also manifests in things like what we call the dignity project, and so we believe totally in the power of work, the power of what Arthur Brooks calls earned success.

Speaker 2: 8:57

Right, it's this idea that if you separate the human being from his ability to be productive and to use his God-given talents to produce, what you're fundamentally doing is depriving that person of dignity.

Speaker 2: 9:14

And you see that manifest, I think, in a lot of different ways. I think that's one of the reasons why the opioid crisis has been so bad in West Virginia is because we've also had the nation's lowest labor force participation rate. So what we started to look at was what are the structural problems in our labor force and our workforce? What are some of the hurdles that have been put in place that make it more difficult for people again to realize that earned success and to feel that dignity that comes with a paycheck? And it was pretty obvious to us that there were some structural issues with our welfare system. I think over the generations in West Virginia we have severed this idea of work being an inherent good in and of itself. So it's part marketing campaign and it's also part white paper and think tank research campaign about what are some ways that we could introduce and talk about to make the state an easier place to get a job and raise a family. So those are just two quick examples.

Speaker 1: 10:17

Quick PSA. This country needs you, you. The goal of the show is to retake the public square and fill it with insightful political discourse and debate that is beneficial to people's lives and helps them make more informed decisions and think about issues in a more holistic sense, and the only way to do that is having conversations at scale. So if you find value in this conversation, enjoy it. I please ask you to hit that little link button, copy it and share it with a friend who may, like it, Become part of the movement to improve public discourse in our society and in this country. Thank you. Now back to the show and going to that latter example. You provided the easier way to get a job. What does that mean exactly?

Speaker 2: 11:01

To give you an example, there's a phenomenon in our welfare system in West Virginia not just West Virginia, it's in many states across the country it's called a benefit cliff. So it's this idea and what we did in the paper is we kind of took the archetypal recipient of welfare in West Virginia, kind of a single mom, one kid, two kids. Let's say the single mom is making $30,000 a year as an a at a waitress job in in downtown Charleston or something like this. Right Again, it's a scenario I think it's easy to imagine. So she's a single mom, she's making $30,000 a year, she has two kids, and I'm just going to pull out numbers here. I just want to demonstrate the problem known as a benefit cliff. Let's say that she gets $15,000 a year in welfare benefits, right, whether it's food stamps or housing subsidies or whatever you think of in terms of the general welfare system. So her total sort of economic value, between the welfare system and what she's making at her job as a waitress, is $45,000, right Now let's say that her assistant manager comes to her and says you know what, lisa, you're doing a great job. We want to give you a $10,000 a year raise, right, we want to raise your salary from $30,000 to $40,000. And we want to promote you to a shift manager or something like this. So now her job is paying her $40,000 a year.

Speaker 2: 12:24

But oftentimes there are these cliffs in a welfare system that where, if you go $1 over what your salary is or what your wages are, it cuts off your welfare benefits. So we went from $45,000 between salary and welfare benefits. We're now at $40,000. But because she made that raise right, because she's actually bettering herself, the welfare goes away. So now she's looking at a $40,000 a year economic package with just her job or, prior to her raise, $45,000.

Speaker 2: 13:07

Prior to her raise $45,000. So as a result of taking that job, as a result of taking that salary increase, she's actually $5,000 a year worse off. And this is not uncommon. We've interviewed a lot of people this has happened to. So what ends up happening? People either refuse the raise, they refuse the promotion, they scale back their hours, so they maintain the economic position that they had prior to the raise. So not a lot of people know about this. Whenever you talk to people in these circumstances, it's actually quite common, and so what we're trying to do is figure out what are some ways that we can actually smooth this cliff system out and make it easier for people to take that raise and take that promotion. Daniel, can you hear me?

Speaker 1: 14:11

so, um, when that's when you talk about that smoothing out with that, maybe be more so it's not such a cliff and it's gradual or how's. I'm just because I've heard this before and uh, this goes to like single motherhood, for example, why people, uh, why people point as that is high and increasing in certain communities, because there's an incentive not to have that kind of put together, uh, communal income, because you would then lose those welfare benefits. So I'm just, yeah, I like to like dive deeper into this because I think a lot of people are curious and it's in the orbit of a lot of different topics as well.

Speaker 2: 14:57

Yeah, I don't think people often associate working at a think tank with being fun or sort of sexy, but this is one of the great things that we get to do, which is try to come up with ideas that we think will actually make a difference.

Speaker 2: 15:08

So how do you do that? You talk to people. We've done focus groups, we've done polling, we have researched and spoken with a lot of other places across the country that are dealing with this very same option, and so we're trying to figure out, kind of, what the solutions are, and unfortunately, no one has a great one right now. One of the things that I'm kind of particularly excited about not because I think it's a silver bullet, but because I think it's beautiful in its simplicity which is a simple grace period. Let's allow people 60 days, 90 days, from the time they get a raise. That would have ordinarily kicked them over this cliff, so they could kind of build up a little bit of financial stability, so they can begin to build that little bit of a nest egg. So if and when those welfare benefits are taken away, they're not absolutely just they're not kicked over that cliff, as it were.

Speaker 2: 15:59

There's something that we're talking about called an open door policy, and this is a little bit more complicated because it's a mix of federal and state, but it's this idea.

Speaker 2: 16:07

I think Utah is the only state that's doing this right now. It's this idea that you go to one place for your workforce benefits, for your welfare benefits. You're kind of dealing with one person who is able to take a look at your situation and help you figure out, kind of what your best path is vis-a-vis your workplace, your welfare benefits, all that kind of stuff. And it's much more of a sort of a case management kind of thing, where they're getting to know these people as individuals and less as a kind of a box to check, if you will. So it's kind of a one-stop shop, basically a one-door policy, I think is what Utah calls it. So it's implementing those kinds of things, so these people aren't having to go to five different agencies to get benefits and to get all of these different subsidies and things like that. And so those are just two kind of off the top of my head. I'm sure my policy team will kick me in the butt. We have about five or six different ones, but those are two obvious ones to me.

Speaker 1: 17:29

No, that's much appreciated because I think the tension that exists between rural and urban communities, or suburban communities, for that matter and I was listening to the podcast you host, forgotten America, which I thought was incredibly wholesome, productive, engaging, so shout out to that.

Speaker 1: 17:42

I really liked your guys' intro too, but I was listening to the one where you had someone on and were discussing colleges and what a college can do for a rural town, and that spoke to providing transportation in the town, which it otherwise would not have.

Speaker 1: 17:58

But something that you brought up, that you spoke of, you mentioned your experience in undergrad at WVU and you said there's obviously a good amount of in-state students who attend the school, but also a number of out-of-state students, one of the places being from my hometown, philadelphia, but also Jersey, new York, other places in the Northeast as well and then you also brought up that there is this tension and that will result in fights, like physical fights and a whole lot more of other things, and I believe that's emblematic of maybe what exists between rural demographics and suburban and urban demographics. But I want to go into what do you think really plays into that. Is it the life outlook? Is it the different dress beliefs? All the above, what do you think really goes into that and what do you think are just easier ways to overcome that as well?

Speaker 2: 18:59

Yeah, that's a great. Universities are a bit of a double-edged sword, so like sort of in the in the most, in the most positive sense, at least in relation to the scenario you're talking about, it really is a forum for mutual understanding. Right, I can remember my freshman year and, as I said, I was born and raised in West Virginia. I I'm in Morgantown and my roommate is from a Philadelphia suburb. I'm trying to think I remember what the name was.

Speaker 1: 19:27

Anyway, it doesn't matter Lancaster, maybe no it was very close to Philadelphia.

Speaker 2: 19:32

I mean, he was basically a Philadelphian and it was my first time really being exposed to people that had come from a very large city, right, and I think for my roommate and a lot of other people at WVU it was their first exposure to people that had never lived in a city, right, and when done well and properly and folks enter into that situation with the proper outlook and a sense of curiosity, that could be a very positive thing. When people enter into it with a sense of stereotype or a sense of some sort of weird power dynamic going on, that's when it can be a little bit treacherous. W is particularly interesting because, as you alluded to, I believe that the university still has a greater percentage of students from outside the state than inside the state, despite being the state's largest university. Its out-of-state tuition was cheaper for a lot of students from New York and New Jersey and Pennsylvania than their own in-state tuition, so it was a particularly interesting melting pot.

Speaker 2: 20:39

But I think that's what it is, daniel. I think people, if you come into it, either believing the stereotype or needing to believe the stereotype on some level. I think human beings get this weird sense of self-satisfaction oftentimes, or the sense of self-worth based on where they're from rather than who they are. I think a lot of times people were looking to belittle or downplay those of us that didn't happen to hail from a large city like.

Speaker 2: 21:04

Philadelphia, and so oftentimes what you would see is, you know, oh, I'm surprised that you guys have teeth, or I'm surprised that you guys have shoes, or I'm surprised that you guys drive a car or whatever. And I think once or twice is fine, right, you know that's's good old fashioned joshing, but I really think that has kind of manifested and saturated our culture on a pretty deep level and sometimes it just came to. It just came to blows or just an absolutely amazing forum for people of different places and backgrounds to get to know one another. Entering into it on a sense of stereotype is, uh, is a as a recipe for an issue, I would say for sure and you brought some a few interesting things.

Speaker 1: 22:00

The one is, I think something that always is a constant theme when we look at just people who don't get along or have tensions is like the in-group versus out-group, and obviously there's just the in-group, depending on who the individual is would be urban, rural, and if you see someone is not associated with that and you identify with that, then that person could be part of the out-group most likely.

Speaker 1: 22:23

But something interesting that you said was that people had a lot of pride when of where they're from and it almost reminds I can relate to that because you hear that a lot and there's there's magnitudes of that, like the kind of cliche cliche phrase of where do you summer as a symbol of opulence and great wealth and luxury. But it also reminds me of just different societies how the Romans thought they were amazing and obviously looked down among everyone else, and it's just interesting to me how that's thousands of years ago and how we look at behaviors so long ago as ancient or archaic. But they are still very present in people today and we just manifest them a little bit differently.

Speaker 2: 23:12

Yeah, I mean there's really is sort of a I mean it's a there are. We still have tribal DNA, right. I mean there's just, there's no doubt about that. We still have a slight preference for people that look like us, that talk like us, that worship like us. Right, it's not necessarily a bigoted thing necessarily have a slight preference for people that look like us, that talk like us, that worship like us.

Speaker 2: 23:31

Right, it's not necessarily a bigoted thing necessarily, and that's part of the purpose of education, right Is to overcome some of those clannish tendencies that we have as a people, and so I think today it's interesting to see, kind of where some of this goes, because we have more access to other people, which in theory, should make us more open to others, right, and understanding. It's still maybe preferring your own way of living, right. I'm not saying I'm not, certainly not a moral relativist in any extent, but understanding why people do things the way they do. At the same time, it also does indeed give us more exposure to people and maybe in some ways, that makes it easier to find and form an in-group right, much easier than what it has been in the past, and so if that's the case, then I think that's one of the reasons why we're so obviously polarized in certain ways. So it's easier to find that in-group and you don't have to try to adapt to other people as much.

Speaker 1: 24:27

For sure, because once you find your niche, your tribe, you can just stay within that tribe and niche and you're safe there. All the information you get there is all the information you need, and so on. Yep, one thing I want to bring up kind of in this cultural tensions is a book that was recently released. It's called White Rural Rage by Paul Waldman and Tom Schaller. I'm curious on your thoughts on that. One if you heard of the book, but two if you have. Like, we think of it and in essence it seems the book appears to draw concern, or alleges to draw concern, of white rural populations that it concludes, the book that is are more xenophobic, racist and more likely to believe in conspiracy theories. That's what the book alleges and finds. But is you know? These people have made appearances on mainstream media and is being talked about quite a bit. Yeah, it's.

Speaker 2: 25:22

I've certainly heard of the book, although it's one of those things that I see the title and I just kind of roll my eyes. It's. It is one of those. First of all, it's probably the only group of people that you could get away with saying something like that and still be welcomed into a mainstream television studio for an interview, right? That's one of the reasons, frankly, why we actually started the Forgotten America podcast, because it was right after the President Trump election in 2016.

Speaker 2: 25:52

And all of a sudden, you saw the New Yorker and the Atlantic and New York, the New York Times and the Washington Post kind of all sending out their reporters out to the hinterlands trying to figure out how this happened Right, try to figure out how and why Donald Trump had been elected for the first time. And I was just reading a lot of these stories and it was so obvious to me that these people were trying to tell a story about a group of people with whom they had nothing in common. There was no sort of mutual understanding or affection or sort of understanding where these people were coming from, or maybe they were manifesting their frustrations through a man like Donald Trump, and so we wanted to start a podcast where we could actually talk about these stories and these people and their trials and tribulations from a place of understanding, right, maybe you don't agree with it, maybe you do agree with it, but we want to at least tell it from our own perspective, because we were kind of treated tired of being treated like animals and the sort of the coastal safari was coming through on tour, and so I think a lot of times, more mainstream to center left, to hard left, individuals are looking for excuses or convenient reasons why people don't vote the way they vote or why they don't sort of see the world the way they see the world. I'll give you a little anecdote here. So in southern West Virginia that entire economy was built on coal mining and, as a result, it attracted immigrants from all across the world. So Eastern Europe, southern Europe, and then also a lot of Black Americans went down to work in the coal mines, and my father-in-law was a coal miner for about 25 years. And you talk to people that were in that industry, daniel, these were not, these were. You would think oh, southern West Virginia, middle of Appalachia, scots, irish, this has got to be some of the most racist places in America, right? West Virginia Senator was a Ku Klux Klan member, robert Seabrook. This would just be awful. You would talk to these people, daniel, and there was no tinge of racism. There was no tinge of the in-group and the out-group or hostilities or anything like that. You know why? Because these people worked and died together in the mines. So there was a mutual respect and mutual understanding that has really permeated a place like West Virginia over the generations, really permeated a place like West Virginia over the generations.

Speaker 2: 28:30

And so one of my favorite episodes of Anthony Bourdain's no Reservations was West Virginia and he kind of tackled this subject head on and even kind of admitted he had certain stereotypes about the states before he got here. But he talked about kind of the social cohesion, the racial cohesion that was in a place like Southern West Virginia. And towards the end of the episode he said the racial cohesion that was in a place like Southern West Virginia. And towards the end of the episode he said I've been to a lot of places in this world but none has touched me the way West Virginia has. Now I don't think Anthony Bourdain would say something like that about a racist hellhole, right. I think it's fair to say somebody like Anthony Bourdain is sort of calling it like he sees it. And so I see these books like White Rural Rage, and I just wonder the spirit in which they were written, because I don't think it's from a magnanimous spirit and I certainly don't think it's from a spirit that seeks to understand the other.

Speaker 1: 29:20

Interesting, well said and a couple of things that immediately come to mind that you mentioned. The one was with Anthony Bourdain and he said what a beautiful place this was, or something of that sort. Yep, knowledge was your typical like liberal, you know left person. He was a celebrity and I agree that someone of that sort would not just loosely throw out such a deep compliment. But I am curious for someone who lives in the state, works in the state, why do you think he said that?

Speaker 2: 29:58

I think it's because the state is fundamentally welcoming. Most people do not put on airs about who they are in a place like West Virginia. Of course I am generalizing, but there's an authenticity here. There's a lack of judgment about who people are just because they look a certain way or they talk a certain way or something like that. And in a lot of places you just don't get that. And I think that's the thread throughout the entire episode, which is come as you are and we'll take you as you are. As long as you treat us with respect. We'll treat you with respect as long as you come to us with a sense of understanding and curiosity. We'll approach you with a sense of desire to understand and curiosity, and that's a very rare thing these days. We like to concretize people right, we like to fit them inside our boxes and the way that we see the world, because it's easier to do that. But we don't really do that as much here in West Virginia.

Speaker 1: 31:04

Again, it's a desire to understand other people and I think Bourdain picked up on that throughout the entire episode.

Speaker 1: 31:29

One other thing that kind of pops up there too is the openness to curiosity, and you would only know that if you've been there you wouldn't know that off of a image most likely not movie or anything else really besides just going there.

Speaker 1: 31:43

And I think that's kind of a microcosm for just different parts in the world, just in general, where you wouldn't.

Speaker 1: 31:51

You'd be advised not to go somewhere, maybe like you shouldn't go there, like maybe that's an accurate thing, uh, or recommendation not to do. But I also get a sense that there's a lot of times like you're recommended not to talk someone but really not to go somewhere because of some stereotype that probably has truth, but little truth nonetheless. And then you go there and you're like that's not really what this is at all. And, yeah, I think you can get real fluffy with being like open-minded and you know I don't care about anything as long as everyone's happy. But there is something to say about actually going somewhere, meeting the people, talking to them, understanding like their background, their culture, you know what they value and having an appreciation for that, even if you disagree I think you mentioned that earlier even if you have different values or different dress, different beliefs, but like approaching it from a curiosity and open point of view and just kind of learning along the way, and I think it's incredibly valuable.

Speaker 2: 32:51

No, it absolutely is. And that's you, just you're. You're no longer able to indulge your prejudices whenever you're talking to somebody face to face. Right, because you're, you're meeting somebody, that is, you're talking to something that is just like you, right On a very fundamental level. Right, you know this is another individual.

Speaker 2: 33:15

If you're religious, you believe this is another individual. This is another son of God, made in the image of God. Right, this is another ensouled human being, and you begin to appreciate just how similar folks are to one another and you begin to sort of consider that, instead of again indulging your prejudice, which is very easy to do from very far away. Or it's very easy to do if the only thing you've ever seen about a group of people is some sort of movie depicting them a certain way, right, which is something that West Virginians have dealt with for a very long time. Or the only time you ever hear them discussed or brought up is by a late night comedian cracking a joke, powerful antidote to prejudice, and that's something that I think would do a lot of people well.

Speaker 1: 34:23

MSNBC. They were discussing the results of the Republican primary in Virginia and exit polls show that the number one issue for Republican voters was immigration. And Jen Psaki made the joke the sour joke, poor joke that Virginia is thousands of miles away from the border. What do they really care about? However, I know we do share a border with West Virginia, so kind of just once again insulting intelligence, slighting the state and yeah, and that was that. There was no kind of pushback or anything. There never really is.

Speaker 2: 34:58

No, of course not. And that kind of stuff really kind of rallies people in West Virginia together. I mean, if you're on X, it's so funny. Whenever that happens you see progressives and conservatives and libertarians all sort of ganging up and kind of holding hands and kind of pushing back on this kind of national, back on this kind of national, this national down the noseness that we often get our direction. And I saw that clip and I don't remember what I remarked. But I do want to say for the last two years, west Virginia has had more people moving into it than leaving it, and I do not believe our friends to the east can say the same thing, and so maybe they ought to be concerned about migration going the other direction for once. But that's exactly what I'm talking about, daniel.

Speaker 2: 35:44

It's that sort of sneering attitude that really gets people kind of just irritated and angry. I remember it was during the COVID crisis. I think it was Jimmy Kimmel, but don't hold me to that. Anyway, western Virginia had the highest rate of people getting the vaccine. It was something you know within six months after the vaccine came out, regardless of what you think of the vaccine, and a lot of people at that time in particular, were like proud of that right, like well, this is great, we're getting out, they're getting vaccinated, whatever. And somebody said again I think it was Kim always said something to the tune of well, that's because they're handing out free opioids or free Oxycontin or something like that. And it was just another, just another notch in the belt in terms of people looking down on a proud, good group of people and people just kind of get tired of it after a while.

Speaker 2: 36:34

Maybe that's the white rule rage People are uh people are talking about, as we get mad for people making fun of us, which I think is a natural reaction there.

Speaker 1: 36:42

It is that that I come from philadelphia. I lived in northeast philadelphia born and raised. I never lived in the rural areas. I visited, you know a ton but never lived.

Speaker 1: 36:54

However, something that's always been a flashpoint of mine is when I detect this sense of elitism and I can't stand any of that, and that both boils down to different demographic class, education, occupation, go on and on, but nonetheless it's all over and that is something that I think a lot of coastal elites exhibit but yet don't exactly have any acknowledgement of Like. If someone's making a joke and they are a comedian, for example, and they make a lot of like jokes of a certain demographic, they probably acknowledge it Like, yeah, I make a lot of like. Dave Chappelle understands he makes a lot of jokes at the expense of trans people. He just says it, but not to get too in the water murky waters here but when it comes to like elitism, like they'll make jokes against any demographic, geographic that they believe or less. However, it's just never acknowledged and I think that fuels one.

Speaker 1: 37:57

Why trump is some a figure like? Trump is so popular? Because he's a fighter against elites, even though he kind of is elite in his own right and yeah, I mean, that's something that's always been a flashpoint for me is when I like detect elitism in figures, politicians. But even like someone I may work with or someone I encounter, I'm like I don't like that. Like if someone thinks someone is less because they didn't go to college, I don't like that, like that just turns me off immediately because it says way more about them than that. Just one statement.

Speaker 2: 38:31

Yeah, and elitism is? It's a little bit like the Supreme Court definition of pornography you don't know how to describe it, but you know it when you see it right. And I've been thinking a lot about elitism lately. I don't know why, it's just in the air, I think, and I think it's fundamentally comes, and I'd like to get your thought on this.

Speaker 2: 38:48

I think it's fundamentally a lack of humility.

Speaker 2: 38:51

It's a lack of the belief that it doesn't matter who you come across in life, whether it's a homeless person, a janitor, elon Musk, donald Trump or Jen Psaki that they don't have something you could learn from right. How could this hillbilly from Southern West Virginia possibly have something to teach me? Guys, you know my son's just graduated Exeter Academy and they're on the way to Princeton, and you know fourth generation mainline family or something like this. Right, and I try to approach every relationship I have, every interaction I have with people, is I might learn something from this person, and I'm kind of eager to figure that out. So if you, if you try to classify what elitism comes down to, I think it's fundamental lack of humility and a fundamental lack of curiosity, and I think those are two of the best traits that we have as human beings and what you said, that you're so turned off by it, because it's a fundamentally repudiation of two of the most fundamental things to being a human being humility and curiosity. And I think you're picking up on that on a cellular level.

Speaker 1: 39:56

Yeah, yeah, a thousand percent, and I and I agree, I agree. I think arrogance is part of it. Obviously, to like where, as you said, like ties, it all ties together and it also comes. I think there's this cowardice to it because I believe those people would expand those demographics that they take expense to. If it was culturally popular to like, they would expand. Who else is the lesser If those other people were also, if it was also popular to insult and slight those other people as well, as you said, you probably couldn't name a book about another demographic other than white rural rage, because it just wouldn't fly. But yet when you do that, then you're invited on podcasts, at the podcast or and mean uh, show after show and write article after article and it's all well and good to be.

Speaker 2: 40:55

It to be clear from my listen let's have white rural rage books, but be forced to defend your claim in the marketplace of ideas, right? Don't? Don't shudder yourself in the confines of people that already agree with you. I'd love to see those authors go on the Jordan Peterson podcast, for example, right, or the remnant with Jonah Goldberg or whomever.

Speaker 2: 41:15

Just pick a podcast of somebody or Jonathan Haidt, just pick somebody that you know is not going to automatically agree with that perspective. But I would much rather have that and then a marketplace where you can have all kinds of books with all kinds of titles about all kinds of groups of people and let these ideas duke it out in the marketplace. But that's not what we have right. We have sort of a broad cancellation of a certain sect of ideas and uh, and putting on a pedestal of other ideas. So yeah, it's uh, it's a sad state of affairs but it's.

Speaker 1: 41:47

It's where we're living right now yeah, I agree, uh, with that that. It would be best to have all the ideas out there and then you debate and let the best ones win.

Speaker 2: 41:58

I think that's so funny too, because I just I kind of laugh sometimes that there's this sort of obviously we have a mimetic streak to all of us, right, we seek to mimic other others way of living or sort of the way they act in the world, and I always just laugh sometimes when I travel to dc or new york and see all of these people wearing something like Carhartt or kind of like these big flannel shirts and things like that.

Speaker 2: 42:26

This is fundamentally part of the white working class, right? Like Carhartt was a white working class brand born out of the I believe it was Milwaukee in the 50s, and so on one side it's sort of a that's a lesser than group of people, but on the same token there's a recognition, there's something about that type of person that I appreciate and want to mimic, and so it's this weird dichotomy internally for a lot of people that I both hate these people on certain levels, or at least I'm sort of disgusted in certain ways, I think. But at the same time there's something there that I wanted to adopt and find admirable, and I wish people would focus more on the latter.

Speaker 1: 43:09

Pivoting a bit too. I want to speak into a struggle that I'm sure a lot of rural Americans encounter too, which is kind of maybe a compromised environment encounter too which is kind of maybe a compromised environment. I mean just last year we saw the East Palestine train wreck and how their entire lines were upended and that ran headlines for a few weeks and then gone nothing. And I know in West Virginia alone, in Taylor County, there's dozens of lawsuits that allege of unsafe water conditions and damage to the land there and once more, these are never really discussed. They're just kind of under the rug and never really brought to light.

Speaker 1: 43:53

And that's something that I think a lot of people rural and other places as well in America they have to contend with that Unsafe drinking water, the land isn't fertile, pets are dying. Some of the stories specifically that came out of East Palestine were just heartbreaking, where the pets, dogs, other natural wildlife would just be found dead within a couple days and that's something that's awful. But it makes the headlines. Then a few months later or even a few weeks later, it dissipates and it's gone.

Speaker 2: 44:28

Yeah, it's. You know we live in an imperfect world, right, and there's there's no doubt about that. There's no such thing as a as a as a perfect energy source or anything along those lines. And I've always.

Speaker 2: 44:43

Because I grew up in a part of West Virginia this will be kind of a circuitous answer to what you were saying, or at least discussion. I grew up in a part of West Virginia that really had no sort of connection to like coal mining, for example, or natural gas, so I was really never exposed to it and I, like many others growing up in West Virginia, was sort of we're kind of told both sides of the story. You know, mountaintop removal is an awful thing, sludge ponds, sort of the particulate matter in the atmosphere that's put out by coal mining operations. Companies don't care about people, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But also that like, yeah, this is a pillar of our economy, right, this is a pillar of America's economy. This is a main reason why America became a superpower so quickly is because we had access to cheap, natural, reliable energy sources. And so you're sort of growing up in Western, you don't really know, like, how do I think about this issue? And so whenever I began to.

Speaker 2: 45:44

Whenever I moved back to West Virginia and I began particularly in Southern West Virginia, I began interacting with more people. They have a more. I would say there's less of a. There's more of a pragmatic view on it, which is yes, more of a pragmatic view on it, which is yes.

Speaker 2: 46:02

Things like coal mining have a lot of negative effects.

Speaker 2: 46:06

There's no denying that. But it was also an industry that provided a way of life, of making a living, for generations of people in West Virginia, where they would come out of high school, not have to go to college or anything like that, and start making a very, very good wage. Coal miners in West Virginia make $100,000 a year, which may not sound like a lot to a lot of people, but in a place like West Virginia, a six-figure salary with a high school education is fantastic and it allows families to stay together. It allows families to not have to move to the East Coast to get a well-paying job, and there's less of this kind of nirvana fallacy where there's this ideal state and if only we did X, y and Z in terms of our energy policy, we would be able to attain that and so I think there's just much more of a practical approach, while understanding the downsides of it, also appreciating what it allowed generations of West Virginians and Appalachians and folks in Wyoming and other places to kind of build a life that they really wanted.

Speaker 1: 47:14

For sure, for sure. I think that's a balanced view. 100. I think the issue that I hear, or at least when I read about these oracles, or read these oracles and hear about these stories, is that the wrongs are done, are not rectified and there's very little recourse for these people who are affected, who may not be the benefactors of these companies in any capacity, even such as workers. And it's just like what the hell.

Speaker 1: 47:41

And I bring up East Palestine because there's still, I believe, a lot of the residents can't afford to leave. Obviously that property value has gone up in the air. That's nothing. And similar to the case I brought up with Taylor County where they sued a coal firm or company out of St Louis I want to get it Company, arch Resources of St Louis. I want to get it Company. Arch Resources of St Louis was the company and they're just so contending with that in court and it's just like what do you do in the meantime while suffering from it?

Speaker 1: 48:11

I think that's where I just have feelings for her. I'm like that sucks and it seems like injustice and she'll be brought to light. It seems like injustice and should be brought to light. But simultaneously to you said like uh, to your point that a lot of people have been, uh, been benefactors of these industries and has been a staple piece of American energy, uh, energy and industry for quite some time. But nonetheless it's like kind of doing it in the safe way and obviously there's, as see with boeing and other major companies, that's not always, uh, the priority. So that's that's where I kind of like approach it from. But I mean, you live in the state you're advocating on on behalf of the people of the state, so that's why I like to bring it up and just get your thoughts on it no, I'm a I'm a big thomas soul fan, and he's just.

Speaker 2: 49:01

His aphorisms are fantastic, and one of his most famous quotes is there are no solutions, there are only trade-offs, right? And it doesn't really matter what avenue you're pursuing, what industry, what type of economy you're trying to build, what kind of regulatory regime you're trying to construct. There are trade-offs. And so, ideally, what you have is you have a system set up so you could properly adjudicate things like the East Palestine train derailment, right. You have things like well, who is responsible for a sludge pond runoff, disaster or these types of things? And unfortunately, sometimes these things don't work. These are man-made institutions, right, but For some reason we tend to cast an entire industry. So something like the East Palestine train derailment is not just an anecdotal or sort of a one-off. It is somehow emblematic of a growing, comprehensive corruption within the transportation industry.

Speaker 2: 49:58

Or if it's a sludge pond disaster, that's not sort of a one-off problem that needs to be adjudicated in the courts. It is emblematic of the corruption of so-called fossil fuels, right, and so I think whenever I talk, I don't really care, frankly, what kind of energy industries that we have in West Virginia, I'm just for looking at it, and I think both sides are guilty of this. I just want to see a balanced discussion with both the debits and the credits, and let's get the ledger out and actually have kind of a sane conversation, because I think the extremists on both ends do not look at the total arguments on both sides of it and I think sometimes that's why we come to loggerheads with some of these problems for sure.

Speaker 1: 50:41

Yeah, and that's why I'm not ideologically driven at least I try not to be rather, use guy principles to dictate where I fall and, depending on the issue, that usually could be left or right or somewhere in the middle, but sometimes I'm way more on the right and sometimes I'm way more than left. Really depends on the issue. That's why I try to like, just default to these guy in principles and seek the truth in the matter. But something like east palestine, more specifically, um, yeah, like you can, if you let. The point I want to make with that was, if you let I love ideology drive you, then you may escape truth in that pursuit or avoid truth purposefully in that pursuit.

Speaker 1: 51:24

But with something like East Palestine was like the train derailments. I just remember hearing that the US had over 1,000, over 1,100 train derailments in 2023 alone, compared to other developed countries that we should be outpacing by every metric and they just weren't facing that. So that was, like you know, the emblematic uh kind of issue there. But nonetheless, I do think you have a point where people will weaponize an issue. They'll weaponize issue for their political game because it's less about the people suffering in the issue and more about achieving their agenda or pushing a narrative.

Speaker 2: 52:03

Yeah, yeah, I agree 100%, and that's called Daniel. What you just described is called being intellectually healthy, and so I think, if you always find yourself on one side of an issue, that's when the warning bells need to start going off and you need to set aside time for self-reflection.

Speaker 1: 52:22

Yeah, for sure, and, honestly, just hearing different perspectives from people you respect too, that's always helpful. But, garrett, I do want to offer you the opportunity to let people know where they can keep up with your work, your social media channels, both personally but also for the Institute and anything else that comes to mind, because I know from what you detailed here good guy, senior on great mission to advance the welfare of rural Americans, and that's something that should be admired and cheered on.

Speaker 2: 52:54

Well, thank you for the opportunity, daniel. I'll just say we have a podcast called Forgotten America. It's on all the major podcast hosting services, which are shrinking, it seems like, by the day. It seems like every time I wake up there's a new podcast hosting service that's going offline. Just G-B-A-L-L-E-N-G is my ex-handle, cardinalinstitutecom. We have a number of social media outlets and we're trying to build some other cool stuff. So I would just say be on the lookout. We've got some big plans for 2024 that we are hoping to unveil later this year that are really exciting. Particularly if you're interested in rural American issues, I think you'll really enjoy what we've got coming up. So sign up for our newsletter. Keep track of our social media. We're kind of hard to miss if you're looking for us.

Speaker 1: 53:43

Awesome. Thank you so much. I really appreciate that. And the last thing I'll say is there anything that I didn't ask, that you wish I did, that you would like to bring up now? Last anecdote or point you want to get across to the audience?

Speaker 2: 53:56

No, I don't think so. I think you did a good job on the interview. Um, I mean, I wish you would have asked why is West Virginia the best state? But maybe we'll cover that in the in the sequel to our conversation sequel.

Speaker 1: 54:08

Yes, sir, so well, thank you again, garrett. I appreciate the time, I appreciate everyone listening in and we'll talk soon.