Men & Boys in Decline: George The Tinmen's Brutal Wake-Up Call (That no one is willing to answer)

Are men's issues truly being heard? Join me as I welcome George The Tinmen to dissect how society confronts—and often ignores—the pressing concerns facing men and boys today. We tackle the thorny issue of 'toxic masculinity,' debating its overuse and the potential damage it inflicts on productive discourse. George and I untangle the complexities of advocating for men's wellbeing, arguing for a balanced approach that doesn't eclipse women's struggles but instead seeks to unify the fight for gender equality.

In this heartfelt conversation, we shine a light on the disparities in education and family courts, as well as the sobering topic of male suicide. By critically examining communication styles, we uncover the unique challenges men face in therapy and academia. We don't just stop at identifying the problems; we analyze the systemic causes and propose actionable solutions, like creating therapeutic spaces tailored for men and addressing the gender gap in teaching. This episode is a candid exploration into how societal biases and structural obstacles shape the male experience.

As we wrap up, George and I dive into the often controversial topics of gaming and porn, discussing their complex roles in young men's lives. We confront the broader issues of men's withdrawal from the workforce and the societal need for vision and guidance. The discussion culminates with a passionate rallying cry for a renewed advocacy that boldly confronts the resistance and gatekeeping stifling these vital conversations. Join us for a frank and enlightening journey into the world of men's advocacy—this is an episode that promises to challenge perceptions and inspire action.

0:00 Men's Advocacy in Left-Leaning Perspective

13:56 Toxic Masculinity and Double Standards

20:31 Family Courts and Male Suicide Issues

32:24 The Gender Gap in Education

41:05 Critique of Richard Reeves's Communication Style

46:17 Navigating Views on Gaming and Porn

49:54 Challenges and Solutions for Men

59:07 Exploring Men's Issues and Advocacy

Music: Coma-Media (intro)
                 WinkingFoxMusic (outro)
Recorded: 12/21/23

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Hello everyone, thank you for tuning in today. Today's episode is with George at the Tim Men. George is a content creator that addresses men's and boys' advocacy through a left-leaning, progressive lens. In our conversation, we unapologetically discuss men's and boys' health issues, we go over why toxic masculinity is actually toxic terminology and should be wholesale rejected, and we also shine a light as to why this conversation is such a taboo in the first place. If you enjoy this conversation, I ask you to follow George on his Instagram account at the Tim Men. If I also ask you to subscribe to this podcast on your preferred listening platform, share with a friend and follow me at overcoming the divide on Instagram as well.

Speaker 1: 0:45

Without further ado, welcome to the show. Welcome to the show, george. It's honestly quite a pleasure and honor to have you here today. Oh, thank you very much. Lovely to be here. I've been following your work for quite some time and your work really deals and boys' and men's health advocacy from this left-leaning perspective, which is almost like an oxymoron in and of itself sometimes. But I am curious on what led you to this endeavor starting off.

Speaker 2: 1:23

Obviously, I get asked that a lot why are you doing this? I think the question should be why are you not doing it? Why are so many on the left not exactly where I am right now If we're going to say, being left-wing is all about, in part, social equality and advocacy for people that need help, why are we not talking about homeless men or drug-addicted men or men who are locked up and incarcerated? Or why are we not talking about sentencing bias? Or why are we not talking about the mutilation of boys' genitals? Why are the left not talking about the fact boys are behind at every stage of education, or the fact that men are more likely to die at every age group and live shorter lives in every single country?

Speaker 2: 2:08

I always have to explain why I am doing this, when I think it's perfectly obvious that it's important and these are left-wing issues that the left have decided to neglect or abandon and betray because they're not popular. And I don't really care about what's popular. I just want to help the most smart people and unfortunately, men and boys' advocacy is very unpopular in the left and I don't understand why. So I don't know. I haven't really got an answer for you other than I think it's important. The biggest cause of the biggest risk in my life and your life is suicide, so that's a good enough reason I think. Yeah, let's go with that.

Speaker 1: 2:49

And when you, I'm sure, talk about this in certain circles there's probably a wince or a cringe with people.

Speaker 2: 2:57

I know there is with me. I was scoffing.

Speaker 1: 3:00

Yeah, yeah, the scoffing is always good, they act like you can't see it, I see you're sneering right now, but I am curious why is there such a reluctance to it? So it's not like oh, I wasn't sure that this exists. I think it's not so much a douthfulness, but so much even like this, like jeering at the fact that this exists, like sure, mm-hmm.

Speaker 2: 3:27

Well, I think we seem to think men are advantage in every single possible way. Every single man is advantage in every single possible way, and that's as detailed as a picture was we're going to paint when it comes to gender equality. And of course, that's not true. There are certainly advantages to being a man, but there are also disadvantages too, and the left are just not willing to talk about that, and I think we should, so I'm going to ask you the question again.

Speaker 1: 3:55

What was the question? It was the reluctance to like even acknowledge the issue Right.

Speaker 2: 4:01

And then this concept of men being advantage in every single possible way is very much brought into the density of being left wing, especially being a feminist, where you're brought hook line and sinker into this worldview of like the patriarchy, for example, or male privilege and, when you can, when you see discussions like mine or information like what I present, often that goes against your perception of the world and it's embarrassing. It's embarrassing because you spent a whole life buying into that narrative that is actually not necessarily correct. You've built your friends around it, you might have a job that's dependent on it, your whole community and way of life. You might even have a t-shirt and I was like once you've lived that lifestyle for so long, very, very reluctant to change.

Speaker 2: 4:47

If people are all about like, uh, women's rights, women's safety, and I will, and I say well, actually men are even more at risk to violent crime, statistically speaking. People don't like that, although it is true, because that all their whole life has been about the opposite and people like to think that they're the hero of their own story, and often they're not. Often they're wrong, but people don't want to be wrong, especially about things that's important to society. But I think it's mainly down to people building these ideas into their identity, identifying as a political ideas, which means you can't really change them.

Speaker 1: 5:23

When I first heard of you was on the modern wisdom podcast, which is a great podcast on. Everyone listening should check it out. But when I was listening to the episode you're starting off and kind of give us disclaimer where you mentioned that women's issues do matters, girls issues do matter. I feel the same. You know compulsion to say something similar to get that disclaimer, but it's that's not the root cause of the disclaimer. The root cause is that people interpret this issue as a zero sum game, that if you're talking about men's issues, then you're obviously neglecting and knowing, don't care about girls and women's issues. And if you're talking about, you know, and that's kind of how a lot of this is looked at. When I feel like that's how it's at least interpreted, I was wondering if you still kind of feel that, or what your thoughts on, or that.

Speaker 2: 6:15

I feel like that's just like a red herring that people throw at you often, that talking about men and boys means you can't possibly care about women and girls, whereas, of course, that isn't true and I do care about women and girls and I do care about women's issues and I do have many women in my life that important to me, and the stories they tell me about what they go through is heartbreaking. But that doesn't mean men and boys that have their own experiences that need to be listened to and that both things can be and are true at the same time. And, like you said, I really hate having this conversation because it just makes me seem like they're no guilty by default, and I'll just continue. You have to prove myself in virtue, signal and show my credentials and kiss the ring, bow down, pay penance, and I don't think we need to apologize for talking about men and boys in this way and I'm not going to apologize for it and I don't feel like I need to prove myself because I feel like it's self evident that men are human beings and they deserve compassion.

Speaker 2: 7:17

To answer the women, of course, and yeah, it's difficult, it's difficult trick. A lot of people play that to make themselves that morally virtuous and you to be sort of like a misogynist. But it's just a sort of a trick, a semantic trick that people play that undermines your point before you've been started. Understood.

Speaker 1: 7:38

When you see one in four fives, one in four fathers don't live, when one in four fathers don't live with their children excuse me and less than one in every four teachers or men and a mere five percent psychologist under the age of 30 or male, how do you believe some of these consequences manifest themselves?

Speaker 2: 7:58

What you're talking about. There is a lack of male role models in the lives of boys. So you're right, about one quarter boys in America living with a father, about 80% of teachers are women and the vast majority of clinical psychologists and therapists are women as well, and that I guess that leaves a massive dearth of sort of positive male role models and leadership and a lot of boys who are not being socialized, especially at home, like, if you think about one in four boys in America with no father. They go to work, they go to school. 80% of them have no male teacher either. So there's no primary male role model for about one in five boys in America and the results are they go looking for belonging elsewhere. So a lot of them will go and they'll join a gang or be recruited by a gang or they'll go online and they'll be sort of drafted into like the whole andrutate army of other misogynists that just clearly don't like women and they're basically corrupted and adopted and taken advantage of, exploited because they can't find that sense of meaning and belonging elsewhere or leadership from a man and they're sort of very ripe to be exploited by in the way I described and that's why I asked a person why I think these online spaces and online so-called influences and misogyny influences I feel that's why they're so popular, because they represent a massive lack of positive male role models and how, in my opinion, people on the left especially have betrayed men and boys and left them behind and shouted them down and shamed them, called them names and just blamed everything on them for so long that they're

Speaker 2: 9:45

like well, I'm checking out, I'm checking out and I get it. I've checked out as well, but I haven't checked into the inrutate style. I still hate him, but I recognize why he exists and why people follow him.

Speaker 1: 10:00

Well, if you just look at the messaging too, I really get a sub-stack article on this and it was kind of comparing some of his messaging that if he's saying this isn't the exhaustive list of it, but if he's mentioning his messaging, his podcast, that boys and men should be fit and capable at some point, and then you also have major news outlets that being thing capable is part of being on the far right and you may be this extremist.

Speaker 1: 10:29

What message do you think is going to land with the male audience? It's the same thing with the word toxic masculinity, for example, where someone such as Tate will disavow that or push back on that, and this isn't defensive then, but it's more or less why the popularity can rise in this vacuum. But if you push back on that, tate is, and then you have people on the left and others pushing, leaning into that term, and the center for male psychology found that 85% of men believe that term is actually harmful to boys. It's like you're not even listening to the men that and boys are supposed to be helping from people and you're like force feeding, this term that no one appears to like but so often deployed in conversation in these spaces.

Speaker 2: 11:19

It's also adding to that poll you mentioned from the center of male psychology that found things about 88% of men polled found that term insulting and unhelpful and damaging, to boys especially, but also women. Very similar amount of women felt the same. It's not just men that hate it. Women hate it too. We all hate it.

Speaker 2: 11:39

No one, no other demographic group would we accept assigning the term toxic. I don't even want to give examples because it's so offensive and stupid. But I don't understand why we can call masculinity toxic and yet no other demographic group can be called toxic. Because can we not afford the same respect and compassion, dignity to men as we give to everyone else? I don't. Yeah, I hate the term toxic masculinity but like it pathologizes an eight part of men, I think masculinity is toxic.

Speaker 2: 12:11

I think there are certainly toxic attitudes towards masculinity that hurt men and boys in the same way as they hurt women and girls. But masculinity in itself isn't toxic and it's like it's a shame because we've, we've. We should have learned this lesson before, because about 100 years ago we there's this concept called female hysteria, where women's distress was pathologized as something wrong in her and she was called hysterical. So female hysteria, and it was seen as like a medical problem to be treated, and now I feel like toxic masculinity is just a modern equivalent of female hysteria and it's being followed by treated by apparently treated by the same corrective therapies and it's like we've not. We've not learned. We've not learned and we should stop pathologizing masculinity and stop tending like men have something wrong inside of them because they don't.

Speaker 1: 13:01

That's a that's a great comparison, absolutely fantastic comparison, because it does. It puts it in this unfair light where you're on the backbone. I mean I heard this from like Douglas Murray before and like a recent book of his. But it's like it's so much easier to burn down a house than there is to build it, and it's just easy to take certain aspects that sermon exhibit and be like, oh, that represents this thing called toxic masculinity. I'm sure it's the same thing to do on the other side as well, but both are just as, or both are equally as, unhelpful as the other.

Speaker 1: 13:36

And kind of making any progress that your you know vision or your mission may claim to want to do or achieve.

Speaker 2: 13:44

It doesn't. It doesn't identify any, any actual tangible symptoms that can be treated, like male depression, for example, is useful term. So that's something that we know what it is. We can discuss it in quite detail and we can get it treated.

Speaker 2: 13:56

Toxic masculinity I don't. I didn't know what you're talking about. Everyone has their own definition and that's why we have this strange phenomenon where everything, everything, seems to be being blamed on toxic masculinity. So like gang culture, knife crime, donald Trump's election all toxic masculinity. But then again, so our climate change, not recycling, brexit, the climate crisis, their financial crash, 2008,. I've seen things like meat eating, women not having pockets they're all caused by toxic masculinity and I'm like I don't. I don't understand how something that causes gang violence can also cause men not recycling. I don't, I don't get that, and that's because the concept itself has no meaning. It's completely vague and like studies that have examined, examined toxic masculinity, they've looked at studies that use that term and they found about half of studies that talk about toxic masculinity don't even define what it is. So it's that I don't. It doesn't mean anything to me. It just, in my opinion, it just basically tries to attach men to bad things, tries to make those men look bad by association. This is men. This is men. This is men.

Speaker 2: 15:06

And that's what. That's what it's trying to do, and in that way it's very effective, but it's just trying to associate men with bad things.

Speaker 1: 15:12

Yeah, when you were also on then a mom with some podcasts. Another point that I absolutely loved that you made was when speaking to these men's health issues and use prison rates, for example, and men being sends a higher, higher rates or higher, longer senses convicted for longer senses than women, and you generally speak, or not generally speaking, just on link, on average, and you see this, this kind of pushback. Well, no men did something like obviously this is like a man's issue and you know all four individual agency and accountability, but you mentioned that this never is brought to when it comes to things like race, like violent crime in lower socioeconomic neighborhoods and say, is majority of black neighborhood and community? You don't hear both. You know they're, it's black people killing each other. So why should we care? Why should?

Speaker 2: 16:10

we.

Speaker 1: 16:12

And I would never advocate nor suggest that. But when it comes to men, it's like the forefront of mind, it's like, well, men, it's the one men are doing. It's a man's problem, obviously. And it's not to say that it's not a man's problem, but it's more to say that it's not just something that men should care about or it's not just something that is you can just dismiss it with that easy kind of like well, men are the people who are doing this, so who cares?

Speaker 2: 16:41

Yeah, I mean, that's a very, yeah, a very effective sort of way of looking at these double standards that people say, you know, men commit most violent crimes, which you do, and that's chalked up to toxic masculinity. But then if you look at that in more detail and you look at the fact that it's actually black men that are even more likely to commit violent crimes, that you wouldn't assign toxic to the color of their skin, would you? And that, again, that's an example of just how offensive it would be if it was assigned to any of demographic, by the same logic, the exact same logic. And then say we talk about violent crime and men, how are the victims of violent? It's always, like you said, who's doing it? Men? And I'm like, okay, well, that's true, but what's your point? Again, that's the same bigotry that racists use to wave away black, black on black crimes. What else called? Well, it's black men stabbing of a black man, so therefore it doesn't matter. That's what the racists used to say and still do say. But that's what we're saying now to this men, like we don't care about violence against men because it's by other men and therefore it's utterly meaningless.

Speaker 2: 17:44

And yeah, you mentioned how, like in America and the UK. A man and a woman going to court will not get a fair trial, not get equally fair trial. Like a man is more likely to be sentenced to prison for the same crime and more likely to get a long sentence if he is In England. In England, uk Ministry of Justice says a man is 88% more likely to go to prison for the same crime under similar criminal circumstances. Quote as a woman. And that's just. I don't understand how that's acceptable. It's not acceptable and it's again.

Speaker 2: 18:17

It happens with black communities. So in America, black communities are like 10 to 20% more, get 10 to 20% longer sentences for the same crime as white communities because of the racist sentencing bias. But men are six times more likely. So they get 60 times 60% more sentence than a woman. So there is a sentencing bias experienced by black people. The one experienced by men is significantly larger, like three to six times larger, and we don't talk about it. And obviously black men pay the price twice because they're both male and black. So they'll pay 63% plus. That was obviously compounded by 10 to 20% on top of that. So it's interesting. There's an interesting parallel between some of the issues that black communities experience and then also ones that men experience and how they're doubly impacting black men, and again, no one wants to talk about that. That sort of intersectionality is not very popular, but I think really, really, really important.

Speaker 1: 19:16

Yeah, speaking of the intersectionality and the toxic masculinity, both terms that come from left wing academia. I was here in, like Richard Reeves, and speak to toxic masculine in the origins of that.

Speaker 2: 19:33

Well, originally it's from the my poetic movement, the my origin is immense. It was an issue, it was a toxic. Masculinity was originally a term developed, coined by the my poetic men's movement. But you are right, it's now been sort of adopted into a more feminist left wing space.

Speaker 1: 19:50

The way that I was understanding it too, was that it was like prior to Trump's election. It was used in very small spaces in academia to describe very specific behaviors and men's presence and all men's prisons, obviously, to describe how hyper masculine can really become toxic and dangerous no-transcript, be harmful and obviously lethal, I'm sure to extent and then, post Trump's election and post me to movement, a few things changed and then it became, you know, the gates burst open and now it was used by the mainstream media and then everyone else. But it's just interesting to me that, like these terms maybe or came from or adopted by a left, but they're, they're like skewed and how they like approach it.

Speaker 1: 20:41

So it's not a whole, a holistic viewpoint.

Speaker 1: 20:45

It's very skewed to, I think, in my opinion, achieve a very specific like a very specific aim or agenda, rather than and I think it's also like high hijacked the word social justice as well something that does mean something, but the word that once again hijacked my opinion to a large extent to achieve a very specific aim and it may not be so you just said all or the means to get there may not be just at all.

Speaker 1: 21:11

So it's um, it's interesting for sure, and there's there's a number of thoughts I want to get on family courts too, because what you provide and why it's so helpful and valuable, is it's just simply knowledge and awareness. It's not as if you're saying like, hey, you need to like put me from your face and listen to all this. You're like, hey, like this matters and this is how it matters, and a lot, I think a lot of men may maybe feel these things or see these, see these things. I know I did, but I couldn't like, since that that is it like I couldn't like find the data for our game, look forward, to be honest, and You're someone who's like, puts it there, like, hey, this is what's like happening, so it's not just you, or it's not just you being like gas lit or no, it not being paid attention to stuff like that.

Speaker 2: 22:01

So that's why I think it's so helpful and Well, I try to keep my yeah, thank you. I try to keep my subjective opinion out of put. I mean, obviously I do give my opinion as well sometimes, but most most of all, like you said, I'm just holding up a mirror to society. I'm like here's the data on domestic violence and here's latest research on sexual abuse and here's some numbers about homelessness and addiction, suicide. I'm just showing you the data a lot of the time and that's all I need to do. I don't need to dress it up in some sort of political jargon. I just need to show you what's going on and why it matters.

Speaker 2: 22:37

And, yeah, I try not to get too bogged down in the Ideological rhetoric like other people do and I just don't think I need to because the numbers are so compelling and Distressing. I just tried to show them to you and, yeah, I hold up a mirror and if you don't like what's looking back, that's, that's not my problem, that's that that's the reality and a lot of people don't like. Don't like the reality of what I show him, despite it being true.

Speaker 1: 23:04

And can you speak that reality and family courts and how that looks for men, because it plays into another important issue as well?

Speaker 2: 23:11

Well, the the reality in the family courts in America Is that in 45 of the 50 states you are not given equal rights to the mother. So you'll go what? What people are asking for? Something called the presumption of joint custody, where both parents go into family court to fight for their child and the core, as it's as described, is has a presumption of shared custody. So there their starting point is this child is now shared custody for both parents, and then both parents build their case top of that. So they're like time, how much time and money do they have? Can they support a child? Is their history of abuse? All those things are then Taking into account on top of that presumption and from there one both parents or one parent gets custody.

Speaker 2: 23:55

That's how it works, but that only exists in five states. The other 45 states the mum is seen as the natural guardian and she walks to that family court and he walks into fireboxing. She's got an eight advantage because of her gender and she's seen as the more favored parent in 45 states. That is slowly changing. It's very similar in UK, but Slowly more more states are adopting this presumption of child, of shared child custody, because ultimately that is what child needs a child.

Speaker 2: 24:24

Forget about what parents have rights to. The child has a right to both his or her parents, and that's what your presumption of shared custody laws are trying to do. So, again, in the same way that men are disadvantaged in criminal court no way I described earlier they're also disadvantaged in family court and again, that's just an example of systemic sexism, structural sexism that hurts men and that people don't want to talk about, that. People don't think men can experience structural sexism. But I mean, I've outlined some great examples of structural institutional sexism. Family courts is one of the very worst and most heartbreaking and what I've seen.

Speaker 1: 25:02

Mm-hmm, I can, I can only imagine that, and I said like ties into another issue, which is men's suicide, because there's this confusion that suicide is simply and ultimately explained by mental illness and depression. But I mean, I saw you mentioned this as well that in the research that you reviewed, suicide is this rational, based solution to various issues that individual men are facing, but maybe very similar, such as the loss of child custody, bankruptcy, loss of a job and and yeah, I was curious on if you could speak into that for both the UK and the US.

Speaker 2: 25:41

So I was a bit. No, you're very right. Suicide obviously is the biggest risk to life for all young men in America and the UK and mostly across the entire world, to be honest, the leading cause of death in young men. Often it's. It is being discussed not enough, but it's been discussed more mostly, or if not entirely, within the context of male suicide being a mental health problem and obviously is impacted by mental health. But primarily it's not a mental health problem.

Speaker 2: 26:09

Primarily suicide is caused by sort of structural reasons, structural causes like I described, that placing stress onto men and they see suicide as a Rational decision, solution based decision to solving the problem. So the problem of maybe they've lost their job, they're going to debt, they can't pay the mortgage, maybe they're losing their child and family court, maybe their relationships broken down, maybe they're addicted to drugs, maybe they've got a disability the whole disability thing plays into the work. A lot of men fall out of work, so disabled, and then die by suicide. A lot of men are being abused and they use suicide as a way of getting out of that. A lot of men are dealing with sexual assault and childhood especially. These are all things that are causing men to take their lives.

Speaker 2: 26:53

It's moderated by mental health, but primarily it's not a mental problem.

Speaker 2: 26:57

Like the majority of men who are suicidal that have been studied don't conceptualize the problem they have as a mental health problem, and it's that's where I think we're getting it wrong, like a man who's lot losing his child and family court in the way we described.

Speaker 2: 27:13

There are certainly even mental health problems that come out of that, but the issue itself is not a mental health problem. That's a legal problem, a structural problem that no amount of mental health support for that man will ever solve, that no amount of him talking or crying will solve the problem of family courts in America that that change comes through societal political change and advocacy and that's where I get frustrated of male suicide advocacy, because it doesn't get any deeper, it just tells men to talk and then fails to talk itself about the things that men are telling them, the issues that are shaping men's stress, never talked about or listened to, and and that's why I don't think men talking is good enough and I wish, I wish we had a bit looked at the problem a bit more detail and worked out what are they, what are they telling us, and actually listen to what men are talking about, rather than just endlessly saying men can talk, men can talk, men can talk.

Speaker 1: 28:05

So yeah, that's why I'd say what male suicide, very complicated issue and and correct me if I'm wrong in this, but I think it was a study that looked at men who attempted suicide but failed suicide attempts, as I believe they're called. 80% of those men believe that they were not classified themselves as mentally ill.

Speaker 2: 28:32

So what that was? That's interesting. What you're talking about is the F-studies. One study found that 91% of men who had completed suicide so men that had died by suicide that middle-aged in the UK. 91% of those men had sought help. So they were seeking help from mental health system, some of them in the week prior to their suicide. I think one in three were in therapy the prior week and they still died by suicide. So more than nine in ten men who died by suicide sought help and still killed themselves. And of those men that had been seen by a clinician, 80% of them were deemed no risk or low risk. So they are seeking help and their risk factors are just not being picked up. So 80% of men who died by suicide were seen as no risk or low risk by a clinician. So clearly something is not right in the way that we're analysing Well, the way the psychological industry works for men in general.

Speaker 2: 29:29

That goes back to your first question about 85%. Sometimes clinical psychologists are women. That obviously creates space in a field that is more geared towards women's needs and women's unique style of disclosing distress and I feel like that's not. I'm not saying that's intentionally done, that's just a natural bias that comes out of any industry where it's dominated by a particular group, and that's why I feel like we need more male psychologists to look into the unique ways in which distress presents itself in men and then also more broadly, confronting the issue of male suicide from a way that's a bit more male friendly and a bit more male centric.

Speaker 2: 30:08

But yeah, ultimately, so much said about suicide. The thing about suicide is like the more and more you speak to loved ones who have lost men to suicide, the more you realise that they have no idea why the men they love took their life. Like that is like what's so tragic about suicide. They leave a family behind that has no idea why they did it, and yet people online claim to have all the answers for all men and it's toxic masculinity that's doing it. And I just want to be like if the people in that man's life who are closest to them wives, parents, children have no idea, then who are you to claim that you know? Because that's how suicide works. It's very idiosyncratic and it's very individual and there's no simple answers and there was no one answer. So I mean I want to underline everything I'm saying of that I don't know. I would never know, unless I sat down to that man, maybe, and asked him. But that's not something we can do and the underscore.

Speaker 1: 30:58

It's just as complicated. Yeah, and just to underscore, one thing that you mentioned too is how a man may disclose that, say, suicidal ideation or leaning into those suicidal thoughts. Is it's different, it's subtle. It could be remark when one is drunk, which obviously you know you're not looking for, but like, yeah, a stupid joke, yeah, that's a fact, yeah.

Speaker 2: 31:25

Very plain work. Men often disclose suicide in a very matter of fact, plain way, like a jokie way where they're not actually joking, and people again misinterpret that communication of distress and again, that's just. We're not, we don't the same of like men, like self harm, for example. Our view of self harm is very much around how women self harm like a lot of, like cutting for example, but men, men, self harm different ways, that punching a wall, for example, is seen as our men self harm, but that's again that's interpreted differently. That's interpreted as like a sign of aggression or show of power or dominance or terrorizing a woman. But often that is that is also a sign of self harm and I just think we're not, we're not classifying men in the right way.

Speaker 1: 32:12

Yeah, yeah, no, it's. It's definitely a detailed, in depth issue that's rather individualized but is looked at as you can set this industry standard to solve it.

Speaker 2: 32:24

such as just talking.

Speaker 1: 32:26

And I find that's. I find that so patronizing.

Speaker 2: 32:29

Yeah, it's just like I mean, I don't know if you ever read the book. Men are from Mars, women are from Venus. But that talks a lot about how men and women communicate. And men more often, when they talk about their problems, they want a solution. Women more often want to talk about it and be heard and validated both.

Speaker 2: 32:45

Both have their merits, and I mean I, I go between the two, but in general men want solutions to their problems, which is why you have that classic argument between you know, the hypothetical girlfriend and boyfriend, and she just wants to be heard and he's giving a solution and she's like you're not listening to what I'm saying and he's like you're not listening to what I'm saying. And then you know you have to sort of sitcom based argument. But that's how it works and a lot of men don't want to go into a therapy room in a clinical environment and sit down with what is usually a woman and tell him, tell her, his problems. They want, they want to feel a bit more productive, they want to help solve the problem. They want to speak to a man a lot of the time and that's where you arrive at different type of therapy.

Speaker 2: 33:24

So the emergence of like side by side time, they call it. So women like face to face time, like what we're having right now with their girlfriends, but men prefer in general side by side time. So time spent alongside their male friends doing things you know, going on hikes, walks, playing games, bushcraft groups, and you know men's sheds and just men's groups in general, like group therapy is a bit more from what I've seen a bit more beneficial to men. I think men benefit more from that sort of therapy rather than one to one face to face clinic environment. But I will speak in generalizations, of course. Obviously it goes both ways.

Speaker 1: 34:04

For sure. Yeah, I actually have a friend who's in grad school, become a psychologist and he's a guy. I'm just very happy for him because the space is so, as you mentioned, so ill fitted I would say. I never went to therapy so I can't like, but so ill fitted I could confidently say in terms of number of men who are, you know, in it, arising to it. Same thing with the teachers. Have a couple of friends who are teachers, who are guys and just happy to see them in it, because not only are there, like not a lot of men who are teachers, a lot of men almost 50% drop out of being a teacher within five years of starting. So it's not something that has a good, you know.

Speaker 2: 34:45

And this just hasn't been a very it's not a particularly friendly place to men teaching.

Speaker 2: 34:50

Unfortunately.

Speaker 2: 34:51

A lot of people are very suspicious of men around kids in general and I can see why a lot of men wouldn't want to be a teacher because he's just permanently in that space.

Speaker 2: 34:59

But we need more men in teaching, especially for boys. I mentioned earlier how boys are behind at every stage of education in the West and they are more or less. And one of the big causes of that is how girls a bit like in how many courtrooms, but girls in classrooms are marked higher for the same work. So in courtrooms talked about how men are punished more harshly for the same crime, but in school of girls, girls are marked higher for the same work Because again, we have women teachers, mostly women teachers, and there's just a bias, a grading bias, like the sentencing bias, but there was a grading bias and again. So these are found that male teachers are less likely to problematize boys bad behavior, more likely to see what they are actually doing, which is normally acting up. A lot of boys in school are not necessarily naughty, they're just bored or disengaged or not interested and I feel that more male teachers are more able to recognize that.

Speaker 1: 35:57

Yeah, I think there's two points there, one of which was like, as you said, they don't label boys behaviors problematic and kind of completely escalate the situation sometimes. It may be part of that, but it's also, you see, between boys and girls is boys have less impulse control when growing up and girls, you know they reached puberty earlier, their cortex develops earlier, which helps them make more analytical decisions, such as doing your homework, turning that in, applying the colleges, getting your actual girl activities, all that stuff, whereas always don't have that or they do, it just develops on a slower basis. And to that second point, you said with the on pretty much discrimination in terms of grading, that there was recently published study that the big think, the big thing, highlighted on their site that they looked at 39,000 Italian 10th graders and found that for male and female students who have identical subjects, specific competence teachers gave higher grades to girls.

Speaker 1: 37:09

So I mean I I always thought that in grade school I was probably wrong. Be honest, I was probably just not in the work for me individually, but maybe not, but it's. Is it something that when you see the data like it makes sense, but it's just such a reluctance to even like to even at that point to be like this could be an issue? This is a concern. We probably should flag this.

Speaker 2: 37:36

I think. I mean I don't think we're ever gonna do that. I mean this isn't a new issue. The boy was behind at school was being an issue for as long as I've been alive, so more than 30 years now and no one's really addressed it or talked about it of any sort of like actual commitment or meaning. So I don't know if it when it's gonna change or if it will change at all. But you're, I've read that study, Italian one too, and it's very interesting.

Speaker 2: 38:02

Like we had a real life test of grading bias over lockdown. So in the UK all exams were cancelled because of lockdown. Schools are closed, no exams and children's grades are based on teacher assessments only. So we're taking away an objective measure of children's intelligence, a test, and we're replacing it with a subjective measure of child's intelligence by through teacher assessment and it's a really great way of showing the bias towards girls, because girls went further ahead than they were before Boys and grades grades actually improved, but not as much by girls. It shows that the more we base a child's grades on subjective teacher assessment, the more that benefits girls, and the more we talk about objective measures of intelligence like testing, the more that gives a equal benefit to both boys and girls.

Speaker 2: 38:59

So it's interesting there's so much data around it, so many people, so many leading authorities speaking about systemic bias against boys, to quote Mary Kearnick Cook. It's amazing how we don't talk about it. It's amazing we talk about all other gaps education like rich and poor, black and white, city, non city, different generations, and those are gaps that we may not like but we can actually work to understand. We can understand why rich kids do better than poor kids, but for girls and boys, these are kids going to the same school from the same families, the same socioeconomic backgrounds, and the girls doing better. So it's a gap we can't even explain.

Speaker 2: 39:38

So I don't know. I've not seen any well meaning attempt to understand it, apart from a few philanthropists and generous individuals. I want to talk about it, but nothing governmental, nothing funded. In America they have the National Coalition for Women and Girls in Education, which is about getting women and girls into education. That's still that coalition does not exist for men and boys. So there is no national coalition for men and boys in education and no one's asking for one. So it's very it is demoralizing and that's what we need to speed up and actually start talking about it and get over this whole thing about men and boys can't experience sexism, because they clearly can, and that's what we've been talking about for the past half hour. Some great examples.

Speaker 2: 40:20

And I was like we're talking about kids now. If anyone deserves change, it's surely children, and we're hurting boys by being not having the guts to talk about these issues properly.

Speaker 1: 40:31

Sure, and just speaking of advocacy, richard Reeves, like the person who is the author of Boys and Men, the president of the American Institute for Boys and Men, what do you think of Reeves and his work thus far in advocacy? And I just wonder if that account which inspiration you've pulled from him or how much you have like kept up with his individual work.

Speaker 2: 40:53

I like Richard Reeves. Yeah, I mean, I've read his book, one of the only books I've read twice. I bought his book for friends, I've read it myself, I've got the audio book, I've got a physical. I really enjoy his blog, so let's do his podcasts. I'm 100% confident that in my opinion, he's a net contributor to this area of advocacy. He does a lot of good and he's very smart and kind and has a good heart and he gives it credibility Like he's a very credible scholar and academic himself and he's got a lot of experience working politics and we need him, need more people like him. But I don't know if he's necessarily an expert in communication. I don't think he's particularly. I think he has a style of discourse that I've been thinking about calling as Reeves is Reevesism, which is just what we talked about earlier, where this overly apologetic sort of hand wringing and apology, complete apology, like just constantly wanting to apologize for what he's about to say, constantly having to say I care about women and girls too, and sort of this sense of shame he brings into discourse. I don't appreciate.

Speaker 2: 41:59

I think a lot of the things he says. He undermines what he's going to say before he's even said it. He will say like, wow, I'm going to talk about men and boys now. That doesn't mean I don't care about women and girls. It doesn't make me a misogynist. Two things can exist at the same time.

Speaker 2: 42:11

Of course women go, I might get on with it. Just get on with it, richard. Stop Stop like cowering down and kissing the ring and just literally praying to the gods. And I might, you're not, there's nothing to be sorry about and you don't need to apologize. So just get on with what you've got to say, because what you're saying is actually really important. So I, like I said, I'll end with how I started. Richard Reeves is an excellent, excellent man, very smart, kind, but not perfect, and I mean I love talking about it Because it's something I keep seeing him doing and I don't think it. You don't think he's doing himself any favors. I think he's losing a lot of support from the men in this space because they're like you're just setting us down a river, and but I'm interested to see what he does next with the IM, ai, mb, and I mean good for him, good for him to actually do something.

Speaker 1: 43:00

Yeah, yeah for sure, and I think I almost share that compulsion to put those disclaimers out myself. But when I first listened to you, as I said, I'm like, why, like, why am I keep doing this? This is silly. This is a name because the people you're not trying to offend don't care, they're going to be offended either way. Like, oh, we put the disclaimer out there, obviously, all as well, I'm going to take his, take his words, information, face value now. And the people who are looking for help and are looking for you to be their voice and to share their thoughts and what they're going through, they're like what, what are you doing?

Speaker 1: 43:37

apologizing for what you're about to say. This matters Like stops. As you said, sell me down the river.

Speaker 2: 43:45

Yeah, yeah, it's like stop making this, to be ashamed of.

Speaker 2: 43:49

It's like I remember when I I spent years just posting content about any of my face online because I'll scan it. And I remember when I started doing podcasts and did my own podcast and first it was my voice, then it was my face, and a lot of people were like, oh, you should be careful having your face on podcasts. You know it's quite unpopular. And then people were saying maybe I should like pixel out my face or disguise my voice like some sort of like criminal, like an actual criminal would. Then I just make myself look guilty. I literally, I literally look like a criminal, so like a pixel face.

Speaker 2: 44:23

I then like, hello, my name's George. And I'm like that is just a great way of making myself look guilty. And I'm like, let me remind you, nothing I'm saying is wrong, like there's nothing to be apologized for, nothing to be guilty over. So no, I I don't think I need to remind people that women and girls do matter to me, but I can't really find myself doing it anyway and I try not to. But the thing about Richard I've talked about it before and he will say something about like these issues are important because they make men better allies to women. So talking about male suicide helps men be better allies to women, and I'm like that's probably true, richard, but primarily this is about men and boys and that's the main focus of conversation not not any secondary benefit to women and girls, and then he'll respond with well, I'm trying to talk to women, so I'm trying to get women on side, to which I I'm always respond.

Speaker 2: 45:16

I'm like that is so patronizing to women. You're saying, you're suggesting that women would only care primarily if it's benefited themselves, whereas I have 15,000 plus women following me now and I don't think any of them are following for their own benefit is in how can these issues benefit me? I think they follow because they have men in their lives that they care about and they want to see protected and supported. But that's why women care. I get messages every day from women. Being like I have men in my life, I didn't realize that they were going through. This really helps me ways of awareness around what I don't know. Not a single woman has ever messaged me saying how can I benefit from this, and I just fundamentally disagree with Richard Reeves's approach. Reevesism, I'm going to coin it right now and there you go.

Speaker 1: 45:59

There you go.

Speaker 2: 46:00

Stop doing it, richard, please stop doing it. You're credible. You don't need to apologize anymore.

Speaker 1: 46:06

That's. That's fine and one of the because he highlights the number, as you are these studies and these points that should attend should that attention should be brought to. He finds that porn and gaming for young men to be largely innocuous and I was wondering, how do you contend with those issues? Because you know, quick commentary for myself is when he says like they're largely innocuous and not harmful to boys and young men. It's like you're, I see as like well, you're looking at the negative that they're bringing, but you're not comparing that to the potential upside that they're not bringing that.

Speaker 2: 46:43

I mean, I don't think born and gaming are natural bedfellows. I don't think they're, that we can compare this to that. I feel like gaming, I love gaming, like it's one of the few, few opportunities I can have to spend time with my friends, because they live in the same city and having a headset on a bit like this is just that's how it is.

Speaker 2: 46:59

That's how a lot of young people hang out and talk. Now that's his modern life and I feel like gaming is a really great way of men especially spending time with other guys and their mates and chatting and catching up and I'm like. But porn I think it's different. Like porn is not the same. Like you don't go around your friends and all the porn together, or least I don't. So I think that is swimming on a lot more cautious over gaming is fine. I mean, obviously there's people that have an unhealthy relationship of gaming. Mostly fine, but porn I am apprehensive over.

Speaker 2: 47:32

I think it is an addiction and there's a lot of men that use porn as a coping mechanism for, like, loneliness and isolation. The fact that maybe they're not in a sexual relationship, maybe they're struggling with dating and porn is a bit of a crutch. But I mean, in the context of porn, I would just say I don't know. I also don't know. I do feel like it is also a lot of think people over blow damage upon. But I do think it's serious. But like all addictions, like including drug addictions for example, I wouldn't say, I wouldn't ask why the addiction? I'd ask why the pain like? Why the pain like? Why do people take drugs? Like what are they going through? What are they experiencing, how? What are they medicating for drug use? And similarly, I'd be like, don't worry about it being porn. Just ask what is that man trying to help Like? What's he trying to solve? What's he going through? Or heal that porn he thinks is doing that for him.

Speaker 2: 48:25

Porn is quite arbitrary beyond that. But I'd say what is he going through? What is the pain? Not not the addiction. It's one of those things. I'm not. I don't have a massively strong opinion of porn. I don't really know much about it. I realize it's very polarized. A lot of men are against it, a lot of men are obviously for it. It's not the same as gaming. I know that much Very strongly on the gaming part.

Speaker 2: 48:49

Yeah, put down and pick up your Xbox controller and go play some games with the boys.

Speaker 1: 48:53

No, that's fair. I think the point that I was making with the two is well, I think you highlight that your relationship with it is almost everything, with a lot of things. So you can have a caffeine addiction that is extremely detrimental to your health. You could also have a caffeine you know use caffeine and it could be extremely beneficial to your health. So I think it's your relationship with it. But I think what I just hear, like I find gaming and I used to watch porn. I used to game a lot. I'm not equating the two, but what I found to be the similar factor between the two was these easier addictive elements to each of them. Like I would game for hours on end and there's nothing inherently wrong with that. I just personally see things like what else you like? What's the upside? Like, what are you leaving on the table? But I don't mean, I'm never someone who likes to, you know frown upon people who are shame people for you know engaging in things I'm more or less like. Well, what are you leaving on the table instead?

Speaker 1: 49:54

No and I think a lot of men, particularly, as you see, nine million men in us drop out of the workforce, who are primate working years. It's like they don't have encouragement, they don't have maybe any vision for themselves. You know I much belief in themselves. I always say that parents are supposed to, or care givers when your child Provide you that belief that you can do something before you realize you can, and at one point you take it over. So I just think you know these. These are symptoms of maybe that problem of like, well, I can't maybe get that promotion, I can't have that dream job or start that passion project or that entrepreneur endeavor or have that girlfriend.

Speaker 1: 50:28

Therefore, I'm just gonna, you know, pick up the controller or pick up the smartphone and watch porn instead, and there's not too much, I would say, evans behind it, I'm just using, I guess my personal experience of like hey, like you can do these things, and I find men maybe even more in these areas, because Probably a lot of reasons, but, as mentioned, I just don't think they believe they may not have much confidence themselves to do something else, but, as you mentioned, they could also be a great mechanism for commuting and talking to people that you are not in close proximity to.

Speaker 2: 51:00

So yeah, I mean, it's like my mom always says everything in moderation and she was nutritionist. So I think the same for for porn and gaming. Like I think you can have a healthy relationship either, but then in gaming even gaming, for example like if you're neglecting your interpersonal relationships and your partner, your friends in real life, or maybe you're not seeing your family, that's where it becomes a problem. If you have a family meal downstairs and your upstairs playing computer games instead, that's when, I would say, worth considering. Is this a problem? But you're right, that's it. But there is that we have to.

Speaker 2: 51:34

Although both can be healthy, we also have acknowledged that in gaming and especially porn, there's definitely a contingent of very Isolated, unhappy, disenfranchised, lonely men that are using both of these things In a way that can be unhealthy and probably isn't healthy. So All of these conversations require a very complicated, delineated, long-form Discussion that is both neither here nor there and it's a and be at the same time and Very contextual. So that's why I like podcasts, because it gives you a chance. Unlike social media, we have to squeeze your entire opinions of one single tweet, mm-hmm. Here you have the ability to talk a bit more in depth and learn a bit more and, ultimately, every you're both right and wrong and every single set of circumstances and it really depends on the individual you're talking about.

Speaker 1: 52:24

To address these health issues too, and more looking at Solution-orientated approach. How, where do you fall between the line of Equal opportunity, equal like outcome? For example, reeves is in favor of having male only scholarships for certain areas where men are lacking, say, representation. Is that something that you find yourself with as well, or how do you think about that?

Speaker 2: 52:49

Yeah, I think we're probably on the same page. I mean a fundamental I'm weak. I'm all about equal opportunity, like, and it doesn't matter who who benefits as a result, as long as everyone had equal chop that success, then I'm happy with any sort of outcome, no matter even if that is mostly women or entirely women. But there are certain places where I think equal opportunity which is fundamentally unfair. Let's just say that I feel like that unfairness as a consequence of the benefit is worth paying. So when I talk about the damage, not having men in classrooms in For boys plays on, that damages the benefit, the development and success of boys I think that problem is bigger than the problem of equal opportunity. So equal outcome, so I would say it's a price worth paying.

Speaker 2: 53:39

In that context and within men in classrooms, I would be in favor of equal outcome because I feel like the benefits that way, the costs, although I do share people's dislike of equal outcome in that. In that instance and maybe a few others in relation to that psychology, I Would be in favor. But in general I'm not in favor of equal outcome unless we're talking about very specific instances like education and psychology. And just yeah, I didn't know, richard is about the same, so that's good to know. He's Similar mindset and I think it's fair. Fair enough, mm-hmm, but not not long term. By the way. That long, that long term, I don't want any out equal outcome I don't want even like I wouldn't want any sort of affirmative action classrooms either, because once the problem's been solved, then I would want to drop all of his policies For sure.

Speaker 1: 54:28

Yeah, I think I think like someone like a firm in action or that I like to kiss you with, is like well, well, no number of things, but one was just like who decides when it's enough or when it's done, and and, and I would appreciate Saying like yeah, well, this isn't, this is temporary. And I think when it was ruled in US, the one, the justices that rule the favor of this, this mention that this is not long term, like this has the Sun's as our end point. It's like who decides when is enough? And if there was ever a point when there was, you know, more men in spaces like our, now, do we do the same thing, just opposite. Like then do we make it so?

Speaker 1: 55:09

And I think to like main the main crux of this issue too, is like addressing that, the root causes as well. If Equal outcome, like if you know, 2% in the US of kindergarten teachers or male, like there's more I heard it from Chris Williams until it but there's more fire pilots, women fire pilots in the US, then which is that 4% female? Then there are kindergarten teachers who are male and yeah, it's like okay, well, that's, you know, shockingly low. Let's see teacher side. So how, how do you like, you know, gear that more towards men and just think about like well, what, what would make a man like want to do that?

Speaker 1: 55:52

Generally speaking, and I think I think part of like what the teacher thing just overall is that Men just like that still to a large degree, as you know, being provide like a financial provider in some regard, and Even though that women want to earn money, obviously thriving the workforce, they still would want a guy to do something similar, and teachers are just, fortunately, notoriously known as not like being the most well-paid. So I think like the crux of that issue too is like the lack, of say, financial opportunity and and stability you may have as a guy in that, where it's still looked at as expected, because men, generally speaking, I don't think expect women to be the financial Provider if she is like you know, that could be great, but if not, it's not like a deal breaker.

Speaker 1: 56:44

Worse for men like there's, there's definitely much more pressure On that. Like you know, I'm paying for dates, paying for, paying for whatever, yeah. So I want a teacher salary. That could be quite difficult and that may just roll out altogether.

Speaker 2: 56:57

Yeah, I mean, even if it wasn't a benefit to men, I'd still be in favor of paying teachers more, because oh yeah, Like in.

Speaker 2: 57:03

America, but in the UK we pay them no near enough, like in place, like South Korea. Being a teacher is you're seen as the same Levels like an engineer, like very highly respected Korea which it is but in this country we don't see it that way and I feel it's definitely one of the causes of men not wanting to be teachers. But yeah, I mean that's great. I mean that's a great policy where everyone would benefit.

Speaker 1: 57:26

Mm-hmm, yeah, and I think, as you said, like the respect thing, men, generally speaking, what you hear like one be respected in their position. They want people that they matter and, if you kind of Look, change the societal outlook on certain Industries in certain fields and raise teachers as, in my opinion, as they should be looked at, is like this Crucial part of society, or raising the next generation that could also change the individual Man's outlook on becoming a teacher Absolutely.

Speaker 2: 57:54

Yeah, I mean I. I mean I my primary school, six years, we only had one male teacher and he left straight away. He left after one year and then it was back to 100% women and I still I remember him the most. I remember like, even though that was like 30 years ago nearly, I'm like I still remember him, mr Hall, and he was the one I had the best connection with and he was probably the best role model I had in school and I'm like we need more.

Speaker 2: 58:21

We need more of those and I just I don't know why we're not getting enough, partly, partly the money, but I just don't think men are welcomed in school either. And there's like the same ways we've had to like defeat the old boys club in industries such as like finance, for example, and engineering, where men have dominated and men have done some things to exclude women. That same thing is happening by women towards men in places that teaching, where it's just it can be very hostile environment Towards men, like a very kind of cliquey. It is a gold girls club. I mean, my brother-in-law was a teacher and he also quit and I wonder how much of us because he didn't feel included or as included as he would have been if he was a woman.

Speaker 1: 59:07

Mm-hmm, yeah, just thinking a lot of things. People, just in general, whether you're looking at history or ever, like they look at a person or thing and like do you think they're uniquely bad? Such as like, like men, as you mentioned, in the finance industry, doing things to exclude women, like do you think only men would do that? Or men, yeah, uniquely badly. Why won't just, naturally speaking, as we're humans, why one social creatures? Why won't women do that in some cases as well, like that, just well, it's like almost intuitive, like it's fundamentally, I think women can do anything a man can do Like.

Speaker 1: 59:39

I don't.

Speaker 2: 59:39

People are all for women's autonomy, but when it's autonomy in the way you describe, then they suddenly think that women can't do that. And it's like they're human beings too. They're not saints, they're not perfect creatures. They're also just as flawed as men, just as biased, as men are in some ways more bias, but at least as much as they're human beings they're not perfect and it's all important to say they're not doing on purpose. I don't think the old boys club and they say doing on purpose.

Speaker 2: 1:00:07

But we, we fundamentally see the world through our own eyes and People that see the world in a similar way are going to benefit to that. And like it's not, it's just, that's just how life is. Like I always, always struggle to see the world as a woman because I'm not a woman, and a woman always struggled to see the world as a man because she's not a man, and that's that's obviously going to sort of feed into working environments that dominated by either of those groups. And We've quite rightly talked about the men's groups in financing and engineering, physics, for example, but we've not, we've never talked about psychology, teaching, and that, the third sector, charitable sector, where it's the same thing but in the opposite way, and we certainly haven't talked about the consequences Men and boys are paying as a result of that.

Speaker 2: 1:00:53

Yeah, reeves labels them as the heel fields health, education, administrative and literature, which would be like journalists and sort of yeah, yeah and yeah health, especially Especially if you talk about treating, not not even just psychology, but like how do we treat men? And like there's not many men in health and there should be a heel health education.

Speaker 1: 1:01:16

Administrative administration literature.

Speaker 2: 1:01:18

Yeah, yeah, yeah, but I think he's changed it now. Yeah, damn, I think I have to get caught up. I think it's a, I think it's heed is Better. I think he's dropped administration and I think he's dropped a literature. He's kept this. I'm sick and tired of acronyms. This is where this get confusing. But healthcare and education I'd say that yeah, for sure, for sure. Intuitive as well. Yeah because of the second due benefits to men seeking therapy and boys education. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:01:50

Yeah, well, I Mean starting like close out here. What's if audience member was saying here this is the first time saying listening to show or listening to a conversation of this sort, like was was one thing you want. Hit home with that individual person. I.

Speaker 2: 1:02:05

Would just say we need to stop seeing Men's issues as an internalized problem or a personal failing by that man and start seeing men's issues as as the consequence of structural causes, just like women's issues, that women's issues are not caused because they're toxic or they can't. They can't get their life in order. They're caused by structural, external things around which they have very little control. But men's issues that often chalked up to internalized problems like toxic masculinity or personal failings, where the man's just not good enough, not trying hard enough, too lazy, or even boys in school like he should work harder. Maybe girls are the smire, you know, and we need to stop, stop that approach and start to see men with the same compassionate details.

Speaker 2: 1:02:54

Women, it's always like in it. I always put it down to a slogan where it's like if a woman has a problem, we ask how can we change society, which is just correct, but when a man has a problem, we say how can that man change himself? And that that's what I think needs to change most of all that this idea that men have ever have control of everything and advance every single possible way is not true and we need to let go of it. Yeah, appreciate that. That's not too much to ask.

Speaker 1: 1:03:26

And then finally, george, is there anything that you wish? I asked you, but I didn't, that you like to speak on. I like topics that you hold near and dear.

Speaker 2: 1:03:38

Um, you've done a great job. You've asked me. I'd say everything if I can think of, but I'm glad you asked a little bit more about the creative strategy and the philosophy of it rather than just the issues themselves. I think that's a really interesting point because I think men and boys advocacy is Sort of unique in a sense that it has to to tear problem. The first is that are the issues themselves. So male victims, domestic violence, that's tier one. But a second tier and the unique tier is the fact that no one wants to talk about it and if you try to talk about that problem you'll get shouted down. So there's a problem and then there's the gatekeepers. So we've got to try and get past the gatekeepers to the problem and I'm glad you asked about that because it's it's a very that's what, what makes it unique in my opinion, where there's so much animosity towards these issues that that has become a problem in and of itself. So that's what I'm I mean, but you talked about that and it's very interesting and I do like.

Speaker 2: 1:04:32

Richard Reeves, he is great readers. Book yeah well, yes, great.

Speaker 1: 1:04:38

Well, yeah, thank you again for all time and thank you everyone for tuning in, really appreciate this conversation and definitely foul. This is the last thing I like to do, george. Working people keep up at you at.

Speaker 2: 1:04:49

I am, I mean primarily on Instagram. Now, I mean LinkedIn and Facebook, but you can start on LinkedIn, sorry, start on Instagram. And it's at the Tin men. All one word the TIN MEN.

Speaker 1: 1:05:04

Yeah, see you there. Couldn't recommend that count off. So, yeah, thank you, of course, and once again, thank you for being here. I mean, of course, thanks everyone for tuning in. Thanks, come in.

Speaker 2: 1:05:14

Bye, bye you.